Newbie buying a 90's Roadmaster ?

Last minute test drive checklist

Hi Guys,

Tomorrow morning is visual inspection time along with a test drive.

What should I look out for aside from smooth shifts? Any revealing quirks or shakes and willowing from abusive towing, or stompin' even harder than me on that gas pedal? I have an OBDII code reader for GMs, but if his engine light is off won't that be pointless? It took some doing but I got the okay on the purchase from ze boss with braids.

TIA

Vic

 

On that car I would look for signs of rear end work and signs of engine R&R. Look to see if it has/had a trailer brake. These things, along with the others mentioned. There are other 96 Roadies around so don't jump in if you are not 100% certain.

 

Thanks Silverfox,

I am having cold feet, not a good sign. So I thank you for your suggestion to keep distance and not get overly enthusiastic. It isn't as though it is so rare a car that another could never be found.

I'll finish rehearsing the checklist and then head out to confront all of this with the 3 most important reasons a car is worth buying, namely condition, condition, and condition.

Soon back with news,

Vic

 

Better to go into a buy with cold feet than falling in love with the car. Personally, I like cars that have not been messed with. I like virgins. A car owned by some older couple that maintained it over the years. I call them honest cars. I like starting with a stock platform that is in good shape from normal maintenance.
I presume that you have run a Carfax on this car?

 

Hi Silverfox,

I will definitely run and Autocheck on this car before buying it and also put it through that nifty VIN check utility. I don't have the VIN yet since I only saw him a few seconds in a drive-in window line. The seller also likes virgins and spent a year trying to find one (seems it gets harder by the day). Maybe he was "gentle" with her, and there's something good left? My two Lincolns were one owner retiree cars. Their engines purr like kittens. I'm hoping that this one will be in similar shape and roar like a Lion. If not, I'll take it slow and one day find the right car.

Talk to you when I get back this afternoon.

Vic

 

Well...look what madbiker got up there in Canada. 96 Roadie owned by a lady that loves wagons with 91K on the clock. Mad got it for $1700 (that may be CA money). Has a rear end noise but that can be fixed. The lady just didn't want to mess with it. I would get the VIN from the seller and run it before looking. It may tip you off to some things to look for. I wish you luck and hope the car is cherry.

 

No rust but many issues: Detailed 1st look at 95 RMW

Hi Guys,


This car definitely isn't a lady driven pampered garage queen like the one Madbiker found in Canada. I just got back from checking out that 1995 Roadmaster Limited Estate Wagon and it is a mixed bag. I'm posting links to the few photos I took before my camera lost power.


If you remember, I had 5 sets of criteria for this purchase - this car moved that up to 9 criteria, not a good sign for sure. Here are these criteria:


First no RUST, second a straight FRAME, third minimal INTERIOR wear, fourth straight BODY panels and good PAINT, fifth well maintained DRIVETRAIN. Not rated before but deserving a sixth place is COSMETICS. Seventh, which I didn't pay attention to before because it seemed unnecessary, appeared upon the test drive. It is RIDE. Eighth there are all the MISCELLANEOUS items which need fixing. Ninth and last there is the small matter of PRICE. So here's my report on this car. Click on any of the photos for a larger view.



1. RUST: SUCCESS


This car has no rust. The seller says he drove it one winter, but it only shows as a very light spray of shading on good sheetmetal. I pounded hard on the floorboards and other underside panels and they rang like the flat metal pans that collect grease at the bottom of your oven.


Conclusion: First priority met. As good if not better than expected.



2. FRAME: Conditional SUCCESS


It seems straight, although I could see the seller drive in front of me and his car sort of seemed to wallow. This made me wonder, but when I test drove the car I let go of the wheel a few times and it didn't pull in any direction. I'll have the mechanic check for frame repair or straightening. It may have been hit and well repaired, but I need to know, especially for a Go Fast car.


Conclusion: Needs to be diagnosed by a professional.



3. INTERIOR: 90% GOOD


Carpet: It needs new carpet only because of some stains and a bit of wear where the driver's left foot rested and wore down the piling. Also there are some normal stains, so it may or may not need to have the backing foam changed. The last panel of carpeting covering the panel near the tailgate was contaminated by liquid plastic that spilled and solidified onto it, so that one also needs replacing, and there are no small sectional carpet floor mats for each passenger.


Click to zoom in



Infiltrations: The cargo locker in the rear left fender well is luckily lined with plastic, but holds half a quart of stagnant water from a leaking window or body panel. The rear right quarter panel window has its swing out hinges broken.


3rd row seats: New condition, as if they were never used.


Rear seats: Very good original condition, with a small wear or tear area on right seatback.


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Passenger seat: Collapsed foam bottom cushion and good leather except for tears near seat adjustment buttons on the lower right side.


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Driver seat: Same as passenger seat except more tears in same position plus a small tear on front of the seat back. Pouch at back of driver's seat is pulled out and won't retract.


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Wear on steering wheel with dye rubbed off. Worn edges of driver seat belt.


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Mint headliner and good plastic and vinyl panels.


Conclusion: Aside from easy to fix carpeting and waterproofing caught in time, the seats need professional repairs. As good if not better than expected.



4. BODY & PAINT: Issues to be sorted.


Small dent in tailgate, and replaced and/or repainted rear bumper. Repainted inner edges of tailgate window bay (barely visible due to slightly wavy texture). Very small surface spotting needing to be touched up. Left C-pillar repainted. Right front fender hit dog, repaired since. Passenger outside mirror needs small paint touchup. Pine tree sap on roof to be cleaned off cautiously.


Conclusion: Traces of a blemished past history, whether serious or not to be determined by professional inspection.



5. DRIVETRAIN: Apparently good.


Engine fires up right away. Idles smoothly without hesitation or hunting. Revs freely. The air conditioning compressor bearing squeels and is on its way out. It also kicks in and out every 15 seconds or so. Mechanical fan shroud, extra small radiator mounted low in front of radiator, and factory sticker to right side of the tailgate show it was a factory equipped towing package.


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Transmission shifts smoothly without slipping or delay. Drove a bit blocked in first or second and it held the rpm fine. No problems foreseen here.


CHANGE OIL LIGHT stays on ! Seller says it does this each time only a thousand miles after changing the oil and that you need to have a mechanic clear it each time. Could this be concealing a head gasket leak or worn rings? No smoke at all from tailpipes, blue or otherwise.


Seller glued stickers on rear windows saying: It is mandatory to keep windows closed at speeds above 140mph. He said he'd taken it a number of times to the rev limiter at 115mph. Luckily it's a tow equipped car ready for harsh treatment.


Miles: 84k if they weren't tampered with. The rest of the car appears to be in relative confomity to this mileage.


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Conclusion: Mechanicals to be checked out by expert gearheads.



6. COSMETICS: Lots of small problems to attend to.


Exterior Trim: Issues with woodie framing trim on front left fender, front right fender, both left doors and front right door. See picture of one fender and detail shot.


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Dents in rear right fender chrome trim. Rear left fender rubber body protection loosened from chrome trim.


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Woodie plastic wrap coming undone above and below tailgate license plate.


Conclusion: Needs a lot of TLC and attention.



7. RIDE: Felt like a tractor doing a sled pull.


The car tracks well, but sort of wiggles before taking its tack. The seller says it is due to having mounted tires made for Vans. His secretary who says she drove it when he first bought it, with its original wheels and suspension, describes it as riding with a normal station wagon ride.


Driving down the road it feels like the brakes were left on. I even checked the emergency brake. Could it be the resistance of the tires? Possibly but it sure doesn't work for me. The steering was fairly precise but a bit floating. The seller said before I drove it that there's a ball joint upgrade and that Troopers with Impalas often complained about the stock sterring setup.


The car felt underpowered, a lot less responsive than my 200hp Town Car. He said that its gearing was not as good as the Cadillacs with towing that had higher gearing. This may make for slower acceleration? I know that the rear axle makes a big difference with heavier cars.


Its suspension worked, but gave absolutely no plush wagon ride. It was like the car was scrapping along the road with a lot of resistance and the suspension didn't move much at all, probably awaiting a huge trailer before it twitched. The setup is not at all for touring, mostly for towing. He even said he had toyed with the idea of setting it up as a 3/4 ton truck or mounting push bars on the front to make it Mad Max style. He's got a heavy foot, if you catch my drift. But the towing package's heavier duty gear and extra cooling would have taken the edge of the worst of mistreatment.


Conclusion: I really can't tell what is the normal ride characteristic of this car versus what his mods to the suspension and wheels caused. Do these just mask that it was hit bad and was handicapped to conceal it for resale purposes? Maybe, maybe not. I will need to drive another one



8. MISCELLANEOUS: Lots of small things to fix.


Hood ornament missing. Passenger side rear view mirror motor broken or wiring issue. Antenna motor broken. Blinker automatic returns to position do not function. Under hood engine bay light missing its cover. Center console ashtray lid won't close. Vanity light in passenger footwell missing its cover. Both rear vanity lights missing bulbs or with wiring issues. Drop gate plastic handle needing replacement. Front aluminum wheels with surface pitting and calipers have surface rust. BTW the tires were made for utility vans and are Yokohama TRZ 235 65 R16 103T which the seller says are 'speed rated'.


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Conclusion: Red flag about next to no maintenance by seller. Nothing fixed as it went bad and possible abusive care of vehicle. The entire vehicle must be gone through with a fine toothed comb before purchase. The suspension, wheels and tires must be returned to stock.



9. PRICE: Too high.


The seller advertised his car a few months ago for $5900. When I stumbled upon him on the road he said he wanted $4700. Now he says "Make an offer". Before seeing it, assuming it was close to mint I was considering $4k. Now you will understand that I am at a loss, not knowing repair costs or parts prices.


Conclusion: Depends upon the advice of friends and the diagnostics of mechanics.




I ran an Autocheck (like CarFax but cheaper) and it came out clean, sold as a dealer auction in 2007 to the second owner at 57k miles. I also used the tool suggested by forum member 94x2 and the VIN check gave the following info:


Comp Nine VIN Search for 1995 Roadmaster Ltd Estate


According to that tool it is loaded with options, the search gives:


There are 1 1995 ROADMASTER ESTATE STA WAG vehicles (0.018%) matching your exact options list. There are 2 (0.035%) with at least as many options.


Thanks for letting me know if this stuff is an easy fix. My Lincolns were granny driven cream puffs with nothing needing to be done, despite higher miles than this car. So I am a bit let down by it needing so much attention. Is this normal wear and tear, or less normal but easy to fix issues others often encounter? Also, what goes into the pricing of these cars, and what would be a proper offer to make?


Again I really appreciate your advice since my lady is out of State and I'm alone on this purchase which will also affect her.


Cheers,


Vic

 

When buying a used car you can count on stuff like suspension and steering components being worn out and needing replacement as a priority, along with brakes.
To put new stuff in there might cost a couple of grand at a shop or a few hundred if you do it yourself.
Sounds overpriced given the work that's required.

 

Asking is too high, but selling price has yet to be determined

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the quick reply. Actually, there isn't a price. He bought it in a bidding war during the economic boom, for way too much. He tried last spring at too high a price and got nowhere. And that was saying it needed nothing other than a new home. He told me the price he wanted, but he's a Realtor used to playing hard ball with money. Now he's asking me to make an offer. I can make a considerably lower offer and let him decide if he'd take it or rather keep it, fix it up for sale or try to sell as is. Given its low miles but quite a number of issues to deal with, what would you think fair pricing would be?

Vic

 

A few precise questions

Hi Guys,

Here's a few questions about the RMW in general, to help me make up my mind. I know a guy who can fix the leather and a good touch up guy too. They both work travelling to all the local dealerships helping get their used cars for perfect. My regular mechanic fixes stuff at a friendly prices. It's not the cream puff he led me to believe, but I'll fix it up if the price is right.


1. Is it usual for the trim on the Woodie siding to get pot-marked and, if so, is there a known fix?

2. There are some water infiltrations, mostly at the rear of the wagon. Is this a common occurrence with tried and tested fixes or something to troubleshoot with a garden hose?

3. Is is easy to find stock wheels? Note: the seller said that with the current springs if you got rear flat tire you had to call AAA because it couldn't be replaced on the roadside, so I'll probably wind up swapping them out too.

4. Does the tailgate usually fit snuggly against the outer edges of its frame, because there was a quarter inch gap between the tailgate and the body panels on each side, maybe a rubber seal was missing?

5. Since I'd need to change the suspension anyways, I found this comment at the car survey website, and would love your impressions of each suspension option:

Thanks for posting your feedback on these points or any general comments you wish to make.

Vic

 

Stock wheels can be had, but if you want pristine ones, be prepared to pay top dollar, in the range of $1000-1200 plus for a set of new ones.

If this gap between the glass and pillar is what you are talking about, then yes its normal



When I take either of my RMW to the car wash, and spray the edges of the gate to clean out any dirt, I get water that comes in around the seal, but thats with high pressure water being sprayed directly at the seals.

My trim is marked up and the wood covered is peeling, its something that is unavoidable on a higher mileage older car like these. I could care less if its peeling, my plans, if I were not selling it and moving over seas, would be to remove all the trim and wood and repaint it as it were wood delete, which I really wish it was.

IMO he wants too much money for the car in the condition you have described. If it was selling for $2000, then I would say it sounds more then worth it. Do not expect the car to turn on a dime when yanking the wheel from side to side, its a 2+ ton tank meant for comfort, not a slot car. Either of mine ride like you are floating on a cloud, you hit some nasty bumps and can hardly feel them.

 

Thanks for the great replies!

Hi Blackfoot,

Kind of you to bring your experience and insight to the task. It sure isn't the same as back in the days where you couldn't research cars or meet up with folks with the same concerns. The Wagon Forums ROCK !

I'll try to get him to let me know what wheels he may still have. I'm wondering if some aren't so badly damaged from some incident that he hesitates to show me. Used ones needing some TLC are fine. I think 15 inchers with a taller sidewall would do a lot to enhance the ride.

And a picture to boot, cool. I felt bad that my camera wouldn't produce one last photo to show you this spread, it's exactly the same as yours - great news.

You just explained what happened, but didn't realize it. The seller was on his way to his office where we had planned on meeting when I saw him in his car turning onto the road. Yeah, just like the other time, I happened to be early and at the right time. The car was dripping wet, he had just washed it. I figured it was with a garden hose, but now I guess it was probably with a pressure washer causing the infiltration I found. At least it served to show me the weak spots, but maybe it won't be much of an issue in the rain.

Thanks for candidly sharing this with me. It's part of owning one of these, trim not holding up and interior panels not staying put. But that doesn't mean that the rest of the car is cheap. I'm used to the Ford panther platform, and drove my Crown Vic endlessly without any repairs other than oil, brakes and tires. There's no trim to lose on those fleet vehicles so I got used to seeing them without issues like these.

So it's nothing to be alarmed about. I was glad to see all the rubber trim and chrome was there and in good shape aside from a small dent you have to look for. The woodgrain isn't peeling off anywhere except barely starting near the back license plate, in time to catch it. So I guess by this vintage GM Woodie standards its trim is in good shape.

He paid $8k three years ago in his eBay purchase, at a time when prices had peaked. Since he pretty much did a number on it by letting things go to pot and not being very gentle with his ride. To keep its resale value he should have pampered it, but a $2k offer will only produce a dial tone. He's not about to take that bad a dunking.

I'll email him about the issues so that he can reassess his situation better. Then we'll see how amenable he'd be about the price. It does have what appears to be quite low miles for a 15 year old car. That sort of counterbalances the fact there's a good bit of stuff to take care of and money and time to invest.

Zero rust is also something you don't find easily in Vermont for a car of any vintage. Also worth a premium. So I'd price it equivalently to a totally sorted out car with a lot more miles, around $3k. Add to this the feature set and best options that bumps the offer to $3.5k. We'll see if the mechanicals check out.

He may take it, as it's going to be tough to sell. When people want low miles they actually want a cream puff no issues car that doesn't solicit their constant care. And those among us who aren't stopped by cosmetics or broken parts work hard to find good deals. So it's not going to be easy for him unless he the invests money and time to fix it up, which he may.

I'm used to driving a 99 Town Car with 130k miles, one from before they improved the steering, and it is far more nimble and responsive in handling than my test drive was. But it isn't a fair comparison because the wagon was jogging wearing ski boots. Those wheels have to go, and probably the springs too. I'd like to keep the Bilsteins but with something done in the springs to get back that dream ride they're famous for.

Actually I found the wagons's steering to be precise, but I think it was fighting the tires which were pulling. Whenever I hit a bump it absorbed the shock but it felt like the car shuddered as if it were road rash. It think those springs would be just perfect but with a second Buick parked on the roof.
So I'm going to have to change them out, or maybe do what this guy mentioned in the comment section of Car Survey:

That's a good bit lighter than the 3-ton 18 foot camper he towed to Florida with an axle pointed inward making him get 8mpg at 75mph. That's his worst gas mileage figure. Now he says it gets 17 at its best. He says he's also towed trailers with a lot less trouble. I think that gas mileage has to do with his tires or some parts of the drivetrain. The car looks fairly low, but he says it is stock height. Could be it only needs plugs and wires or a MAF cleaning.

So this car is a hard call, more involved than I bargained for after being spoiled with a couple Lincolns bought years ago with more miles than this but without a thing to do other than annual inspections and oil changes. But from what you all say it's worth it. I'll take your word for it, because in today's test drive there was nothing that showed this other than the cool features of the tailgate, the 3rd row rear facing seats, and the incredible zillion ways of adjusting the power seats which was way better than in the Lincolns.

Thanks for weighing in so that it all makes sense. I didn't really know what I was looking at, nor how to judge the ride. Now it's easier. I'll see if we can figure out a deal.

Vic

 

Find a few more of these and drive them. I knew you wouldn't like the suspension set up in that one. Some of the things you show and mention are common to these wagons. Some are not so common. You are used to the Ford platform as you mention and you need to drive several Roadies to see if you even like these wagons comparatively. The one you are looking at is atypical in ride and handling because of the changes in suspension the owner has made without knowing what he was doing. I do not believe the car is worth $3500. It does NOT show like a car with mileage in the 80K range. At least not from what I can see and from your description. Trust me...where this car is and where you want it to be....you will spend a lot of money. I would start with an honest car that is untouched. By the way...I thought you said it was a 96. Then...toward the end of your post...you say you searched compnine for a 95. Whatever it is...it has 96 seats. And...if the engine compartment is any indication of how this car was taken care of...walk away. My

 

Not the best of news

Hi Silverfox, and thanks for your seasoned advice as always!

Well said. I figured as much and wanted to find out how they ride with stock suspension, then ran an Autotrader search for any 92-96 Roadmaster, Caprice and Cruisers for sale. The closest which turned up is a sedan in New Jersey and a wagon in Pennsylvania, either one a 500 mile round trip for a test drive.

Yup, a zero comfort locomotive ride for one! And that despite the cushy seats. Something nasty has happened to this car. It should ride nicer than a Crown Vic.

He probably didn't know what he was doing, but I think he more likely left the road driving like a wild man. The hills where he lives are full of hairpins and he probably mashed it in a corner, then fixed it up cheap with wrecking yard suspension and wheels from an old truck. The unusual side tears on the seats may come from harsh G-forces in such cornering causing people to be flung against the door and over time mashing the seat bottom foam into pancakes. That may be another reason why he put in that suspension, to be able to wind around corners in full acceleration and the protection of a B-body in case of a wreck. So the ride could be a symptom of a wreck or just a custom setup made for drifting around corners full speed, and not the alleged towing story as it doesn't make sense to do what he did just to tow a 3-ton 18' camper.

It's been trampled for sure. I've seen some restoration of very old cars, and some with far more miles than this one's real miles (double maybe). So I was looking more at the potential, the glass half full instead of half empty. But not at this kind of pricing when you figure in the value after restoration would be comparatively low.

You're quite right, waiting for the right car is the only way to go. It may take a while searching or more difficulty in locating, but they're around. It's all about getting time to work for you. I just didn't want to miss an opportunity, which turns out to be a false one, rust aside.

Regarding the model of seats that is strange, although I've seen some ads for 96 model year cars which had the rectangular front section. This car doesn't and here's another 95 with the same seats.

http://www.cars.com/go/search/detail/photos/multiPhotoPopup.jsp?paId=349026604

The engine compartment was not cleaned at all, but I imagine that the Texas dealership which sold it to him had cleaned it 3 years ago. Vermont is a pretty dusty muddy place, so that would make sense. The seller is very messy, every compartment in the car filled with junk and garbage. But being a slob doesn't mean it couldn't clean up. The car was probably not taken care of properly, and the little things which broke never got fixed. It's got some good leftovers though.

So what price would you offer to deliver it from the seller's molesting designs? Or how much would he need to pay you for you to take it off his hands?

:confused: Vic

 

Here's a one owner that, I think, is near you. Seller can't spell but, if the car is as they describe, it may be worth a look.
http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/cto/1759281554.html
Price is ALWAYS negotiable.
EDIT:
Oh...wait...you are in VT. I mixed you up...thought you were in Chicago.