Best engine build for my wagon

I'm guessing that miserable Rochester two barrel on the 350 had MORE to do with it.

 

Parameters for the assertive engine on my trusty wagon.

Dear Scarymonster and Station Wagon fans,

Lots of opinions here and I think each one deserves its moment in the sun. I just thought I would share with you my design decisions for the drivetrain that will be going into my 1965 Buick Special wagon soon.

Believe it or not, the goal was a vacation cruiser and tow vehicle. So my priorities were good gas mileage and enough torque to handle something like a 5000 lbs. trailer.

Exploring the Buick performance engine community, I learned of an engine builder who was getting 20 MPG out of a Buick 455 in a GS that was equipped with an overdrive 200-4R tranny. So I asked this engine builder to try to build an engine specifically for me to get good gas mileage. To do this he did a number of things:

1. Used modern components to reduce friction like a hydraulic roller camshaft and roller rollers. Also he used things like Teflon coated bearings.
2. He went with racing technology to remove the engines "breathing." Specifically he choice an appropriate aluminum intake manifold, muscle car cylinder heads (in Buick terminology Stage-2 heads), and long tube exhaust headers. All this reduces the work the engine has to do to bring in fresh air and expel exhaust. That freed up energy required in the engine's "pumping" action is available as mechanical power.
3. The use of Aluminum heads also allowed for a higher compression ratio. The engine has a static compression ratio of 10.2:1 and a dynamic compression ratio of 8:1. That is about as high as is possible California's 92 octane premium gas. The higher the compression ratio, the more efficient the engine is as converting thermal energy to mechanical energy.
4. The engine has a custom camshaft that is roughly a Buick muscle car camshaft of the late 60s.
5. The engine has a modern electronic ignition system and also an EZ-EFI throttle-body fuel injection system. This allows the engine to idle smoothly even with the more aggressive cam.
6. I had a performance transmission builder harden a 200-4R transmission to handle this level of horsepower and torque. I specified that this transmission include a lockup torque converter for the best highway fuel economy.

The plan is to use this engine with a very "tall" rear-end (like a 2.78 rear end ratio) and take advantage of the incredible torque the engine produces to make the engine work harder but turn less per mile. With the old engine and TH-350 transmission, my wagon is running at 2600 RPM to go 70 MPH. The new engine transmission combination can easily reduce that to 1700. That translates to a 35% reduction in RPM to maintain 70 mph. Just that change alone should offset the 35% increase in engine displacement.

You can read more of the technical details about this engine at the engine builder's description of the dynamometer runs here:


http://www.v8buick.com/showthread.php?252771-New-Buildup!-448ci-STG-2-SE-Hyd-roller-an-MPG-motor

However, the punch-line is that computer simulations of the engine with less efficient components gave a peak horsepower of 400 hp and top torque of 500 foot-pounds. Very nice. The engine builder was hoping to top that with his better component choices - perhaps 450 hp. What the engine actually did was 509 hp and 535 foot-pounds of torque!!

Only driving the car will tell, but I am hopeful that this unexpected extra power is a result of the engines more efficient design and will result in an unexpectedly high fuel economy. At the same time, this engine clearly will have no trouble pulling any trailer I can actually afford (and the frame can bear!)

This is clearly an ongoing experiment, but I thought I would toss it out for your consideration. Along with death and taxes, higher gas prices seem unavoidable. If you can improve your wagon's fuel-economy so that you no longer dread every fill-up, you will certainly enjoy it more and probably use it a lot more too!

Cheers, Edouard

 

Now this is the way to back up what you cliam,

Cheers, Edouard

 

Good food for thought. When I first had the car I was nearly 20 years younger, had all these wild, hidden supercharger (as in rear intake vs. top intake) ideas, hogging out the rear areas that store spare tires on the sides and kinda chop and channel a somewhat narrowed rear end in there (hidden from top or bed area in back to stick some WIDE rear tires under it yet still be able to move 4' x 8' sheets of whatever, etc. I think I'm going to go with a 455 mildly built with a torquey cam but use todays goodies: roller valve train, aluminum top end, fuel injection and electronic ignition. Balancing is very important for long engine life as I've grown up a little and decided not to build an asphalt peeler but rather a cruiser that will still smoke the tires for a little excitement. Good flowing heads, proper exhaust, and accurate fuel management should get me decent mileage and lots of power.

I have located the TH400 I had built for it also. It has never been filled with fluid and installed. If I can get it back I was thinking about having a performance tranny builder take it apart and give it the once over, replacing any shrunken seals or anything funky. Back in the day I had King's Transmission in St. Pete build it. I told them I wanted my engine to blow before the trans did. $560 bucks later it was ready but never got installed. Still don't have a stall converter picked out yet. So that is kinda where I'm at with what I have. Still need a rear end (found one, saving cash) need to tow it home (working on that one), and then driving 1500 miles to get my tranny back! Still amazed that I've gotten this far already...

 

You know, I have been reading everyone's comments on your choice of engine combinations and I just thought I'd get my two cents in. I have built some Ponchos in the past and have never been dissatisfied with the performance no matter what the displacement. They are just plain old well built engines and the technology can't get much better with any changes in cubic inches.
My choice for you engine would be the 455. It is a good reliable and torque abundant qualifier. Pontiac made some exceptional engines in the 70's and for a long stroke large displacement engine, the Poncho can't be beat. Another thing I thought I'd mention is that the after market support for the engine is also exceptional so finding parts is not an issue.
Now then, let talk parts. Try and find a 70-72 block. the webbing inside is plentiful and out of the way should you decide to increase the cubes to something larger. Most Pontiac people change the stroke to get more cubes and don't mess with the block too much. It is also made from a higher carbon and nickle content iron. Those years are probably some of the toughest blocks in the market coming from the factory and if weight is not an issue, they are the best choice. Another thing good about these blocks is that the cylinders are nice and thick. They are hot pressed into the block and nitrogen cooled for an impenetrable fit. They seldom are the cause of failed blocks and you don't have to use tricks like cement in the block to strengthen the block.
As for the crank, you could go with an after market like Scat cranks or the like, but these can cost a pretty penny. One alternative you might consider is if you can find them, Pontiac made a steel crank during the late sixties and early seventies. Another exceptional piece of engineering, The 68-72 455 crankshafts are 4340 steel and hammered at least five times for strength. Something you can thank the guy who thought up the Delorian for. He insisted the crankshafts be strong while Pontiac was involved in drag racing and the rule stuck on the larger engines even after they got out of racing. They were also nitride treated at the factory for an even tougher product.
Pontiac made a series of cylinder heads during the early 70's that was the basis for the Edelbrock aluminum heads. They actually flow better than the Edelbrock heads even with the smaller valves because of the route the intake and exhaust takes entering and exiting the chamber. The down size is that they weigh an incredible amount out weighing the aluminum heads by around 40 lbs. the upside is that if you can find them, the "G" series head is relatively cheap and easy to machine as the guys in the Pontiac designing dept. made sure they had plenty of metal in them. Not that they needed it because the internal bracing and design of the cooling passages made these heads very strong and less likely to warp in the case of high temperatures.
Rods? Factory rods were mostly forged but there are some Mexican forged products that are not up to snuff. I would recommend some after market rods or at least have the ones you choose magged and fluxed and re-sized for the 15/16th piston pins. I have seen the 7/8th pins shear at high RPM.
Buy after market pistons. That's all I am going to say on this. Pontiac used imported (Mexican) forging for all of their forged pistons and I stay away from them because they can vary in size and ring groove placement from piston to piston. Whatever you choose, keep the compression level below 10-1 to run on pump gas. You can go up to 11-1 if you use aluminum heads.
Pontiac actually offered some pretty heavy duty camshafts for their superduty optioned engines. These are still pretty hot considering the family car image they had to maintain and these are still available from several manufacturers. Depending on the rear end gears and the transmission you run and the stall of you torque converter,(I'd recommend at least a 2500 stall for a heavy car. Don't forget about a cooler for the tranny) you should keep the overlap above 110 degrees. Pontiac's are very forgiving when it comes to cams due to their torque levels that are instilled into the engine in the first place. Of course you can manipulate this to different RPM ranges with changes in duration and cam timing so your options are appealing depending on what you want to do with the car.
I have seen 700r4 transmissions modified to fit non chevy blocks (Advanced adapters I think?) and if you are going to run tall gears, then I would definitely want to get one of these for your Poncho. They are strong enough to handle 400 + HP in stock form and are still available at a reasonable price in the local junkyards. They have a low first gear, something a heavy car needs to get out of the hole and the overdrive will put your engine revving about 2400 RPM at 70 MPH.
whatever you choose to go with, I hope you find some of this advice favorable and wish you good luck with your Pontiac. I can't wait until I start my next project which is going to be a Pontiac or a Buick.
Anyway, have fun. that's what this is all about.
Dave.

 

and remember most poncho guys i know all tell me that(like my 71 455) were underated in the horsepower dept on purpose.

i have a set of buick stage1 heads and could of put them on my factory 455 in my estate but i like the poncho simply because there is no big block/small block in the poncho line same or more power from a lighter unit

 

Bolt in a bone stock Chebby 6.0L fuel injected truck engine. Prices are pretty reasonable on a used take out compared to having an engine built and it will have plenty of power.

 

Unkldave thanks! That is some real good "inside" info I've been looking for: in the inside scoop on production parts and which one's work best. I think I have to make a decision on cheaper vs weight savings. Will the extra expense of aluminum heads be offset by the weight saved and power gained from higher compression? I will probably go with an Edelbrock aluminum top end for the higher compression and weight savings. Good to know there are steel cranks out there, maybe I can find a rebuildable 455 short block that has a decent steel crank in it. As far as rods go, I was considering a nice light set of H beam rods to go with some nice light forged pistons. Good to know about machining up to a 15/16 pin! Good info! I can do my own porting on the heads with a little instruction on where to grind and a lot of patience. Good stainless valves, dual springs, roller lifters, rockers, and a torque profile roller cam should round it out. Trans is still up in the air as I may get my TH400 back, maybe a 4 speed auto, 5 speed manual, or maybe the TH400 with a Gear Vendors Gear Splitter making it a 6 speed auto with .78 overdrive. Lots of options out there. I'm pretty sure my 455 will come in at over 400hp/500tq which is plenty for cruising the beaches and scaring the ricers! Good info!

 

How much do you want to pay for "fun"

Dear Eagle Freek, scarymonster, and Classic wagon fans,

*Sniff*, I hate to confess, but that is no doubt this is the easier and probably more reliable solution. Plenty of potential donors, ample parts support, and most repair shops can competently maintain it. A very practical solution - and horribly boring, uninspired and really, really uncool!

However, if I had done that, my wagon would have been back on the road years ago. All it would have cost me is excommunication from da' brotherhood classic Buick owners.

You need to think about how you are going to do the build. In my case, the decision for going aluminum heads was easy. There were 2 alternatives: do nothing to the heads and lose performance, or send cast iron heads clear across the country to have them ported and shipped back to California. Just the cost of shipping the heads and having them ported was enough offset the extra cost of new aluminum heads. As it turned out, the volume of the heads for my engine were unusually small for a TA-Performance stage-2 head and that threw off the compression ratio. So my engine builder, Jim Weise had to port the heads by hand to get enough volume to make the engine work at all. Lucky me, I have ported, stage-2 aluminum heads!

If you go high-compression you need to accept that you'll be buying premium gas. However, I actually did a little analysis of this:

http://www.teambuick.com/forums/ent...-quot-penalty-quot-for-using-premium-gasoline

It appears that refiners cannot make regular gas without making premium at the same time and the additional refining costs are uniform expense. So the price difference seems to be more or less constant. However, the overall cost of gas is increasing. As a result, the percent difference to use premium is dropping. So I at least hope the improved thermal efficiency will make designing an engine specifically to run on premium won't ultimately cost more to operate.

One detail to think about when it comes to transmissions is that options like the Gear Vendors system won't give you a lock-up torque converter. That will cost you a little fuel-economy. Also the Gear Vendor systems are plenty expensive.

You shouldn't have any trouble getting those numbers at least if you go with a high-compression engine.

Best of luck in your wagon engine caper!! :2_thumbs_up_-_anima

Cheers, Edouard

 

I have been thinking about this!

 

I saw prices of $2500+ for new Edelbrock aluminum heads and that's unworked. Enough to make me gag. I'm real good at digging up killer hardly used parts and getting them on the cheap. I looked at that EZ throttle body injection system and looks pretty sweet although port injection would be more desirable, again looking for the setup that "must be sold or the wife will kill me" scenario. Again this is all just to help form the blueprint for what will become of the Tempest down the road. I definitely want to do away with the bench seat (all ready gone) and put in low back buckets, a console with the old 4 gauge cluster in it, full gauges including tach but all the old factory ones. I want to keep the 15" steering wheel (so cool) so the whole interior will be period correct, making it look like it came that way. I want to paint it black cherry so at night it will look black but in the day if you look at it just right you'll see a deep, deep candy like mahogany red color. Was thinking about adding those cool hideaway headlight assemblies from a '65 Regal. That would be cool! And maybe a flux capacitor. And maybe a phase plasma rifle in the 40 watt range. And a Starbuck's coffee machine next to the hot tub...

 

Dont get the XGS series plasma rifle. They suck down down batteries in no time..

 

Was more referring to the one Cyberdyne Systems Model 101 tried to buy in the beginning of what movie???

 

Just so you don't get you head and heart set on a 455 The Pontiac 389 is also a fine engine and are fairly easy to find. Look on ebay for the tri-power set up. sure looks nice under the hood. A single makes more HP but it don't get no cooler that a tri-power set up!!
And while I am here, Pontiac had made some solid lifter cams with anti pumpup lifters that worked very well in their 421 super duty engines as well as some 7.1-1 ratio hardened rockers for the "G" style screw in studs on those heads. The 3/8th pushrod tubes also cant be beat either. Good luck.
Dave

 

Terminator!