Modified stock 307, or 350 crate?

Alright, so what I'm looking at now is keeping the 307 in my '89 Olds Custom Cruiser, or swapping it for a 350 crate. The car will just be used as a daily, won't tow with it, might haul a little weight.

If I keep the 307, I am removing the emission controls, rebuilding it with non roller lifters, some 307's had roller lifters, they aren't reliable, and swapping it to TBI, fuel mileage will be better, plus it'll have a bit more power.

The 307 is a solid motor, I don't care what anyone says, sure you can't get much power out of it, but it is a solid motor. We have flogged the hell outta our '86, it's a mild built 307, stock carb, high rise "RV" cam, modified valve timing, that's really it. I could get the power I want out of a 307, and it would be a bit cheaper than a crate motor. The acceleration is kind of impressive I suppose, 14s to 60. That is one reason I'm looking at a 350, I have a lead foot.

The other side of the coin, a 350

More power, 'bout the same gas mileage, TBI, not really necessary 'cause I'm not towing with the car. Just an option if the 307 doesn't pan out.

There are two other options, just not ones that make sense in the budget.

305, same as the 350 or 307.
327, powerhouse, little bit more, just more gas.

Either way, TBI is a must, a four barrel is fun, but I can't keep my foot out of it to save my life.

To further clarify, my driving style is aggressive, I have a lead foot, I do coast, when there isn't an idiot in front of me riding the brakes. 'cause they don't want to do 10 over coasting down a hill. I take off a little, or sometimes a lot harder than most people, just depends on the situation. The power of a 350 would help a little over the stock 307, the 327 would be a great option from what I've seen of those motors, but I can't afford it as far as I can tell.

And, this is the 350 I'm looking at going with:

www.jegs.com/i/GM+Performance/809/12499529/10002/-1

And, the TBI system:

http://www.affordable-fuel-injectio...et_TBI_Complete_System_w_Distributor-5-9.html

Would love a MPFI system, and I dream about a TPI setup, but that's outta the budget. Would be a great learning experience, except for my wallet. My wallet would be forever traumatized.

I'm going to use the intake off a Chevy pickup, 88 or so newer and up, one that is already TBI. Using a pickup 'cause there isn't a bunch of emission garbage, and the intakes are sometimes tuned to be more t'wards torque.

This car will a daily driver, so I'm trying not to let the gas mileage get under 15 in town. I know that is feasible, so, any advice?

Thoughts? Suggestions? Some old timer wisdom to spread? What are your thoughts?

EDIT:

I will likely be using a 700R4, not sure if I'm going to go for anything fancy like an electronic lockout, not sure how that would be helpful in this situation.

 

I have never had a problem with my 307 ever, it's not a neck snapper by any means but have never had a power problem other than it's slower than....and we were given the wagon by a friend who owned and drove it for years.
I've never had slugish problems keeping speed driving in the mountains, but allways wished for that little bit more.
I've never built a motor peroid but from what I've learned on this forum is, if my 307 ever packed it in I'd never spend a cent to fix it, I'd drop a 350 in, even if it was a plane jane stock motor.


Just my 2 bits

 

There's a reason for the saying, "There's no replacement for displacement."

Use the 350. Every time. Without blinking.

 

Kinda funny in a way... your wanting to know what motor, and I have a built by another shweet 350 in my parts car. My delema is.... do I drop it in my 82....but my 82 is'nt broken, or do I drop it in my old 65 truck...but that would (to me) destroy the origonality.... or drop it in my full size 87 (307)...but that wagon is on propane....


I feel for ya, I hate decitions some times

 

Yeah, I was betting on the bigger is better slogan in this case.

What about TBI versus a good old reman quadrajet, or maybe a aftermarket equivalent four barrel.

I know you loose some bottom end with TBI, but, what about fuel mileage? Is it worth the change over? I know there has been a lot of discussion on this, but I can't really find any hard evidence to say either way.

 

I see the 350 crate 290 hp for like $1499 I believe at Jegs. I like the 350 but remember if you build your 307 to get components that work well together because in that case big isn't always better. I was totally against computers until the last couple years when I learned to halfway use them and the internet has been one of the greatest tools invented for building engines, you pick out a part and research it and it tells you what works for what...no matter which road you take good luck and sounds like you are having fun with your wagon already

 

I've bought and installed that same crate 350, and I think that's the way to go, as long as originality isn't a big issue. It's a great platform for future performance upgrades too. Warranty, bullet-proof, parts availability - I'd go with the crate engine. Good luck!

 

I'm not a wise old timer. But I knew one once! I've had all of those engines. To me the most fun was the 327 in a 57 Chevy. Young son had one in his S-10 Blazer then dropped it in his 76 El Camino. Runs great.

But up to date, I bought the 55 wagon back after the dumb a#@* ruined the 350 and 4 speed. He had a worn 307 and powerglide put in. This was my only experience with a 307. If others are like it I'd find a deep lake and deep six it!

Had a 305 in a Chevy van which we made seven round trips pulling cars and junk from Illinois to Florida. Drove it over 100,000 over the 100,000+ it had on it. Pulled like a 350.

Finally dropped a rebuilt 305 modified in the 55 wagon just because I bought a van with it for $500. This thing runs super with a 200R tranny and a Holley 750.

Still wished I'd bought a crate 350! The only way to go for a dependable small block.

 

Alright, thanks for the info. Current phase is just getting the tank road worthy. My neighbor has been known to file complaints with the county over us having unregistered vehicles.

I should have the crate by this fall. I've gotta look into good 700R4's, and alternatives. I'm keeping overdrive, I use it way too much not to have it. It would murder my gas mileage since a lot of my driving is done at speeds at and over 45MPH not to have OD.

Gonna run the 307 until I can afford to swap it, nothing really wrong with it, I just want more power. And I'm not entirely sure how far past 134k miles the THM-200 will last. Don't want to get it road worthy only to park it again.

Anyhow, TBI or a carb, don't think it'll make a huge difference either way. Maybe 3 more miles to the gallon with a TBI setup. I've been looking into it, as I said, and I've decided that I'm likely just going to use a good Holley 4bbl and a Holley intake, or factory 350 TBI intake with an adapter plate, can get that for next to nothing.

I'll start a build thread when the madness begins. First things first, I have to come up with about $600 for the parts car, which is scrap value. Might be able to get it a bit cheaper since I'm giving it back as a rolling chassis. I know the junkyard it's coming out of. It's solid, but it's seen enough miles to go to the moon and half way back, and it has no title. The moon is, after all, only 250,000 and some odd miles away from us on average. Pitty the cars that have traveled that distance, and wonder why the ones who have traveled twice that still go on living.

 

Don't you just love some neighbors? Glad we finally live in the boonies. Stiil, we keep everything inside or hidden out back under cover.

When we moved, with new laws, couldn't even change your own oil at home or work inside a garage. Of course, it depended on neighbors there too!

That 1987 Chevy van with the 305 had over 250,000 when I sold it. We were pulling a small RV trailer and making trips 1100 miles to Illinois ever other year. Only got rid of it because the mileage worried me. The old guy who bought it drove it for at lease five years around here till it disappeared.!
Other cars died at 50,000 miles. Just never know.

 

I would go with a 350 Olds, and keep a carb on it. If you switch to the Chevy crate you will need to buy all the accessory drives, brackets, starter, exhaust manifolds, different y pipe.... list goes on. Keep your Olds, Olds.

Another option would be to get a 350 from a tbi Chevy or GMC truck. Get the whole set up. That way you know everything plays well together. Good luck.

Mike
​

 

I live in the sticks, but even out here a car can't be sitting without tags, "Apart", and in a few other states, like on blocks, for "Extended periods", most of the time we don't get bothered. But we've been having trouble out of him lately, he seems to live in his own world.

We had to get rid of a couple of Cutlass' a few years back 'cause of him. I just don't want to loose my car 'cause of that idiot.

EDIT:

Just saw the other post, and yeah I know all the work involved, I just dunno if I can find a 350 olds around here. I'd love too, but I dunno if I can. It will cost the same either way 'cause I've gotta replace most of that anyway.

I've got the parts covered anyway, I've got access to a a truck with a 350 with a serpentine belt system I can remove and use the parts for core trade ins on new ones. I'd rather have a serp belt, much easier to change when they need it.

And if I got a 350 from a truck I'd have to change the oil pan, in most cases anyway.

I have plenty of places I can source the needed parts from. It won't cost me much, I'm not going for a dress kit motor, but it isn't going to look bad either.

 

You would not have to change the pan to drop a 350 into that wagon. Chevy uses pretty much the same oil pan in all their vehicles, they design the frame to allow ease, not toss it all together as an afterthought. Like the damn LTD's/Marguis of the 80s with 2 stupid ass drain plugs, because they did not think ahead and said SH*T, our frame is in the way of our oil pan! I have done so many GM engine swaps from V6 to V8 or B.O.P. to Chevy and never once had an oil pan issue with a SBC. They are not like FORD, using different pans on different cars because they didnt think eerything through during design time, they K.I.S.S. GM was even smart enough to drill motor mount holes in all their frames I have ever worked with, to accommodate every motor option that was available since that frame was originally used back in the the early production years. So the holes will be there for Buick, Pontiac, Chevy, V6 and V8 engines that were ever available in every car that that frame was used under.

Try to find a wrecked decent mileage 96 and up pickup with a Vortec 5700 motor, grab the wiring and computer. Instant injection and 260hp stock. Swap in a cam if you want more and a set of headers and have it close to 300hp and know its going to all work together. Be alot cheaper then a crate motor and then buying all the bits to make it work. Even a Vortec 5000 is pushing 220hp stock, shoot a 4300 Vortec is 200hp, depending on the year. You could even keep your eye out for a LT1 from a wrecked Camaro, Firebird, Fleetwood, Caprice or Roadmaster and have anywhere from 260hp to 340+ and get the entire computer system and wiring.

There is nothing wrong with anything that has been suggested, but if I was gonna go injected in a non injected car like yours, I would do it the way I mentioned, with a stock Vortec or LT1 setup, no guesswork, parts hunting and proven performance right from the word go for 1/3 the cost over buying it piece by piece. Shoot, go even better and steup to to the new LS setup with a 4.8, 5.3 or 6.0 and be pushing an easy and fuel efficient 250-350hp stock and have the bragging rights when you pop the hood to show all the boys your cool ass swap!

 

A mid 90's vortec is an option, though depending on the price, I might just go with an old school 350 rocket with a good ole' four barrel.

I think there are a few junkyards nearby with a crankable 350 vortec. But man that wiring, that's not going to be fun. I can probably bolt the ECM in place of the stock, feed the wiring in place of the stock, ect.

What's a rebuild kit cost for one of those motors? I'm guessing about $1,500. New sleeves, pistons, rods, main bearings, seals, that sort of stuff is all I'd need to replace. I don't like swapping an untouched used motor, that's just asking for trouble.

Would be amusing to have a B body wagon with OBD II and a 5700 under the hood though. I ain't looking to burn the tires off, just get up and go. Though I do like that idea, and I'll keep it in mind. I'll have to poke through the junkyard to get a feel for what's up there. I know there are some trucks in that bracket, plenty of which could have that motor.

Those trucks have however, been rode hard and put away wet, so to speak. They will need work on the motor and trans. Might get a new trans, that is always cheaper in the case of old RWD GM's.

I can probably get the motor for a little more than the parts car if it cranks. They'll let me see if it cranks and even see if I can get it fired. We've known the owners of the junkyard my whole life, since we moved out here.

Anyhow, thanks for the insight, whichever route I go, it's going to be interesting. Oh, one final note, any tips for getting a Vortec 5700 or 5000 started after it's been sitting who knows how long? I'm gonna need them if I find one after fighting the bee's, tree's, snakes, briar bushes with thorns long as your pinky, and of course anything that might be inhabiting the truck. They always seem to inhabit the vehicle I need parts from.

 

You know, try looking on Craigslist or other online ads for a cheap truck with a Vortec motor. Down your way, rust is not as much of an issue as up in New York area where I am from. But I can find turn key 1/2 ton pickups that are rotted away for around $800-1500 about anyday. Then you could have the whole shooting match at your disposal to rip and tear at your leisure. Plus you can drive it to see how well it runs. When you are done, haul in the rest for scap and get some of your money back. Don't count out the full sized vans also, they can usually be gotten cheap, especially the work vans, because not many people want a gutted out, low optioned work van.

Its nothing for a SBC to hit 250-300K miles, if maintained on a regular basis. I would not even worry about a SBC with 150K or under, as long as it sounds good, holds good compression across the board and has good oil pressure, run it!

If you plan to rebuild, unless there is a piston or rod issue, you would not need to replace them, just re-ring the pistons, go with new bearings, have the cylinders cross-hashed if there is no wear lip or scores in the walls and put it back together with a fresh cam and lifters, high volume oil pump. There is really no need to replace everything if the motor is running with no issues. Just freshen it up and have the block dipped.

I had a H.O. 305 that had 286K on it and tore it down to rebuild because the diver headgasket started getting weak. My father bought the 87 Grand Prix brand new and I bought it from him, From ts 1st oild change and till I swapped the motor for a 350 I had built up, it ran on Kendall Super D3 Diesel oil and was run 5000 miles between changes. I pulled the motor out and just for giggles, took off the head and there was still cross-hash marks in the walls and not any scoring or lip at all. I took it to our local motor builder, Craiger Racing Engines in Clymer, NY to have him look it over. Told him the head gasket was failing and told him how many miles were on the motor and alost to check the heads and tell me what he thought. The next day he called me up and asked me if I was sure it had that many miles and I said i sure am, its been in the family since specila ordered brand new and delivered to the dealer in October 86. he said he had never seen a motor with that many miles look as fresh as this one does, I told him what oil was used and he said keep using it, its gotta be the key to its long life. He recommended just going through it and replacing the bearings, gaskets and re-ringing it, told me he could do it all for $600 and I said call me when its done, asked me if I wanted anything special for a cam, I said I want the same Z28 cam that was in it and he said good choice.

So sure, pull the motor down, but if it runs, does not smoke or make any noises, just freshen up the cylinder walls, re-bearing and swap in a new cam and lifters as well as a good high volume oil pump, repaint and go have some fun. You can get SBC rebuild kit and toss in a cam and lifter kit for around $400 total.